Leadership at the Core of Every Business Issue

Jeffrey Summers [00:00:00]:

The main problem is always going to rest with the owner. If you understand that all problems are leadership problems, every single one of them, from the utensil that just dropped on the floor to the dirt spot on the door, to your P and L to whatever else, they're all leadership issues. So you need to be developing your ability to lead people and a business constantly foreign.

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Angelo Esposito [00:00:37]:

Welcome to another episode of WISKing It All. We're here today with Jeffrey Summers. Jeffrey is the founder of Summers Hospitality Group and has over four decades. That's right, four decades of experience. So I'm super excited to have him on the show. So Jeffrey, thanks for joining us.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:00:56]:

My pleasure.

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Angelo Esposito [00:00:58]:

I'm excited to dive in. I want to learn more about what you do, how you do it, but I always kind of like to start with the why. So you've been in the industry for more than four decades. As I said, I think that's a lifetime of hospitality wisdom. So I'm always curious about the kind of why. So what first pulled you into restaurant and what's kept you hooked for this many years?

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Jeffrey Summers [00:01:21]:

What pulled me in was the ability to deal with people on a daily basis and solve problems with immediate results. If I saw an issue, I could do something about it then and I could see the outcome seconds later. That kind of was my first opening to that drug and it just, it just, it permeated my entire being at some point and it just kept me around.

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Angelo Esposito [00:01:50]:

I love that.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:01:51]:

I was on my way to be a lawyer in college when I got my first restaurant job.

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Angelo Esposito [00:01:56]:

Really?

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Jeffrey Summers [00:01:57]:

Yeah. And I don't know, just being around food and being able to do things with your hands. I was very hands on. Came up from a family that built houses for a living, so working in the trades was always my family thing. So that was it.

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Angelo Esposito [00:02:18]:

I love that. I love that. And, and, and let me ask, so you. So you were starting to become a lawyer and your first job? I'm always curious and we'll get into like all the stuff you do today, but I always like to get a little snippet of the journey. So, so what did that look like? You just took a job, maybe, you know, needed some cash like a lot of people do when they start in the space. What did that look like?

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Jeffrey Summers [00:02:38]:

It looked like getting up at 5am every day to go in and make biscuits. Okay. Wash windows, put the grill back together and then once we open, make biscuits and then after that go to lunch and work the grill. So it's been a hands on experience ever since, since day One.

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Angelo Esposito [00:03:00]:

And so what did your trajectory look like? Right, like obviously we're going to get into summer's hospitality and what you do today and how you've helped so many, you know, businesses and restaurants. But how did you go from, okay, I got a part time gig just to make some cash. What was like the evolution, like what was the next step and the next step before you kind of were like just deeper and deeper in the restaurant space.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:03:20]:

They saw that I was doing the job really well. And I'm going to use the phrase back then that was in short supply. There was a labor shortage and et cetera. And we're talking the early 80s. So I was available, I was a body. I got thrown into different situations. And they saw that once I was thrown into situations I could easily master them and handle them. And then I just simply became the master of my own fate at that point.

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Angelo Esposito [00:03:58]:

Love that. That's awesome. And when you look back at, let's say just, just your career is, is there a moment where like it really hits you? Because like imagine day one, you know, you're working, you're making some side cash, you're doing a good job, you're good at what you do. But was there a moment where you said, okay, this is exactly why I do what I do? Like you really knew the restaurant space was for you.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:04:21]:

When my name was on the door for the first time and I was controlling people's paychecks and I was able to influence to a great degree their trajectory in their own career paths and life paths. And I was really good at it at that point. So that's what that was. The moment when the first person I hired to be an hourly employee became a manager. That solidified it. And from there it's like, I can do this once, I could do this a thousand times, then for the next 30 some odd years, that's exactly what I did.

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Angelo Esposito [00:05:03]:

That's awesome. That's so cool. And I just had a curiosity, you know, it's not that it's the most important detail, but I'm curious. He's talking about, you know, when your name was on the door. What kind of concept was it? Like, what was your first concept and how was that experience?

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Jeffrey Summers [00:05:15]:

Long John Silvers.

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Angelo Esposito [00:05:18]:

And how the, and how it. Tell me a bit about how did it go? How was your first, you know, your first at bad at, you know, owning a spot?

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Jeffrey Summers [00:05:27]:

The first spot was own was here in Texas. And that was 20 some odd years ago. And it was, I hadn't consulted at all. I'D still been working with chains and country clubs and stuff, right? And I started answering some questions on a couple Internet forums for operators, right? One thing led to another, and one of them called me up and said, look, I can't do this email back and forth anymore. I need to have your butt in my business. So I packed a bag and got on a plane and went and helped her. We became partners, and that was that.

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Angelo Esposito [00:06:08]:

Awesome. And let me ask you, so from, you know, you know, from about to be able to become a lawyer to then jumping in the restaurant space, end up falling in love with it, you kind of grow in that space. I think from what I'm hearing, you know, one of the most important things for you is that gratifying feeling of helping others and helping them grow. And so then you decide at some point, obviously, I'm shortening here because I'm sure there's a lot of details and ups and downs and never just looks like this. But at one point you basically say, okay, I love helping, coaching, growing people and businesses. I want to start my own thing. So I'd love to understand when was the inception of Summer's hospitality group, where you're like, okay, it's time to do this as a, as a service, as a business.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:06:55]:

It was back in 2004, and it started with that first client that called me up and said, look, I need your butt in my business.

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Angelo Esposito [00:07:02]:

Okay. Wow.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:07:03]:

And then I realized, you know, you never know what you know until you have to use it in a venue or at a time where you didn't anticipate. So that's exactly what I did. And then from there, it's like, well, if I can do this again. It goes back to the first iteration I had when I first determined if I can help one person that I hired become a manager and grow their life and their business, and then the second time around, help an operator do the same thing on a bigger scale. Then that's what I'm going to do. So I formed my company, and that was 20 some odd years ago.

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Angelo Esposito [00:07:47]:

That's so cool. And so I know one of the things you. You talk about is next practices instead of best practices.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:07:54]:

Right.

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Angelo Esposito [00:07:55]:

I'd love for you. You know, we have a lot of operators that listen owners, operators, etc. We have a pretty good, good base of those types of listeners. And so my angle with the podcast is simple. Just trying to get people with wisdom like yourself and share that knowledge so they can learn something. So I love that. Let's start there. Can you Share what that looks like in real life for an operator.

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Angelo Esposito [00:08:14]:

Next practices instead of best practices.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:08:18]:

You know what the term best practices mean? And I determined a long time ago that all the jargon that we use in the business world doesn't apply. You have to create your own and you create your own because your situation is unique. So best practices, if somebody puts a list of the top 10 best practices that a restaurant operator should do, might be relative to some degree, but it doesn't exactly all fit your business. So what you have to do is develop your own systems and processes and your own approaches to the issues that you face in your business, on your street, with your guests and your employees and, and your money. And that becomes next practices. Doing what you need to do. It's just a practical viewpoint and exercise in determining what you need to do. Not necessarily the guy across the street.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:09:18]:

If you keep copying that, you don't have your own business, you have a copy of somebody else's. So best practices really don't apply. I mean, especially if you get into the metrics for best practices, you need a third. A third, A third of the. All that crap. I mean, it doesn't apply. Maybe you got a third for this and two quarters for that. I mean, it just doesn't matter.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:09:40]:

You got to look at your business through your own lens and through the lens of the guest and the lens of your employees and determine for yourself what works in your four walls.

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Angelo Esposito [00:09:49]:

That makes sense. And I've seen that also, like, it's the lesson I also learned. Just like growing WISK or software business. We work with restaurants, but growing WISK is like, sometimes it's like be careful or be wary. Not careful, be wary of the whose advice you take. Right. Because I don't think people are malicious. But sometimes it's like if sometimes they are.

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Angelo Esposito [00:10:09]:

Yeah, sometimes they are and sometimes aren't. But it's like the. One of the best advice I got at least for, for the kind of tech world was like try to take advice from someone who's a few steps ahead, right? Because sometimes I'll give a simple one. Marketing. You might have a massive CMO of a billion dollar company and sure, he might give you advice, but it's not practical when you're a startup. And then you might have the opposite, a startup person who's giving you advice, but you're like mid size and you're doing 10 million a year. And so like I think knowing where someone is in their journey is also a good indicator of how relevant potentially Their advice can be. And I've seen that with restaurants, to your point.

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Angelo Esposito [00:10:44]:

Headline about Starbucks, it's like, dude, you're not Starbucks. Like, focus. You know, like, try. Try to learn maybe from someone who's a step or two ahead or. Or obviously, like you said, the best cases you're learning from, potentially a coach or someone in your situation. But it's something that I've learned where it's like, just be careful who you take your advice from, because a lot of advice sounds good, but might not actually make a big impact or any impact in your business if it's not that relevant. Right?

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Jeffrey Summers [00:11:11]:

Absolutely. And we froze there for just a second.

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Angelo Esposito [00:11:14]:

So I don't know if you know, but no worries.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:11:16]:

I agree with that wholeheartedly. It's a unique industry and you need to approach it uniquely. And I make the joke that sometimes you have to unique up on different solutions for yourself because you didn't see them coming at you to begin with. So I agree with that 1,000%.

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Angelo Esposito [00:11:37]:

That's awesome. And I know one of the taglines or one of your fundamentals. They're not a tagline. One of the fundamentals. I was obviously reading up on you and it was, I think, the five piece and was perspective, people, performance, product and profit. And profit. So obviously that caught my eye. And I'm thinking again, I'm also thinking about our operators are listing in.

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Angelo Esposito [00:12:02]:

So if I'm a restaurant owner listing in right now, in this episode, where should I start?

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Jeffrey Summers [00:12:08]:

Depends on where you're at. And everybody's at a different place at a different time, all the time, all over the place. I mean, you just have to dig in where you're at and ask yourself, what's the top three things that if I do right now, I can grow my business today, right now, this very minute. Or what are the top three things I need to do with this employee in order to help them grow, which is going to help to grow my business? What top three things do I need to do with my guests today, right now that's going to improve the guest experience, and you have to develop your own models for thinking about issues and problems. You can use other people's thinking and answers and solutions about problems as a template for your own. But you have to understand the unique individualism that comes with each business. I mean, I think every independent operator that's listening to you right now is going to understand that a lot better than a franchise or chain guy, bless their hearts. But it's the independence that have to really grasp that and run with it.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:13:15]:

Look at your own four walls and determine what's going to work right now and what are the top three things that I can make an impact when I take the next step physically in my dining room.

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Angelo Esposito [00:13:24]:

Yep. I like that.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:13:27]:

It may or may not be something you learned, or it may be some morphed idea that you get or develop through looking at your own processes and systems and the abilities of your own people to execute whatever it is you need to in order to grow your business.

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Angelo Esposito [00:13:42]:

Makes sense. And I find sometimes, you know, it's. It's to your point, it's like, focus on the next step. Right. You people can get overwhelmed and, oh, there's so many things I could do and shiny, you know, object syndrome. But it's like, okay, what can I do today to impact my business? Now, for some people, I know they might struggle with I kind of solidifying or identifying what is that constraint? So that's almost like the step before the step. Like, I don't even know. I'm so overwhelmed.

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Angelo Esposito [00:14:08]:

Things are not going well. They almost have trouble figuring out what the issue is. Any advice for people on how they can. I know it depends on the type of restaurant, but like, how they can maybe think through finding that main constraint or that main problem.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:14:23]:

The main problem is always going to rest with the owner. If you understand that all problems are leadership problems, every single one of them, from the utensil that just dropped on the floor to the dirt spot on the door to your P and L to whatever else, they're all leadership issues. So you need to be developing your ability to lead people and a business constantly. And that includes the basis for that, we all know, is thinking. You have to think better. So what are you thinking better about today that you didn't yesterday? What processes in. In place, in your own mind, in your own heart, in your own body that propel you to learn more. Therefore, you can do more.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:15:12]:

And if you're not learning, then you're not growing. And if you're not growing as the leader in your own business, neither are your people or your sales or anything else. So it all starts with the operator. It all starts with the leader. He sets the pace. He sets the template for what work looks like, good work looks like, and what good growth looks like, both for the individual, the guest, and the business. So it's. I try to impact thinking wherever I go.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:15:41]:

The do always happens later. I mean, you can learn to do, you can teach anybody to do, but to think about what it is that you need to do is. It's the thing, it's the skill. It's the super critical.

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Angelo Esposito [00:15:54]:

It's a teaching the man how to fish, not giving him a fish kind of thing. Right, exactly. That makes sense. And for people who are maybe kind of light bulbs are going off and they're like, you know, it's true. I haven't actually been learning the last two years. I've just been trying to keep my doors, like, where can they start? What advice can you give? Or people can maybe step it up? You know, is it coaching? Is it like, what can. What have you seen that has worked with people to maybe develop those skill, Leadership skills?

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Jeffrey Summers [00:16:25]:

The difference, I tell people, is there's a difference between working in your business and working on your business.

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Angelo Esposito [00:16:29]:

Right.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:16:30]:

And I've talked about that for as long as I've been alive, and that's exact. But it's exactly what you have to do. You got to stop being the chief cook and bottle washer.

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Angelo Esposito [00:16:41]:

Yeah.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:16:42]:

So whatever you have to do to do that so you can gain a better perspective of the things you need to do to grow your business, your people, and everything else yourself. And you're not going to do that by working the grill every day. Because if you work on the grill every day, then you just bought yourself a job, not a business, and there ain't nobody working on it. So it's not going to grow. In fact, if you stop growing, if you stop working on your business today, it starts dying the minute you do that. So that's when you're going to know that my business. When did my business die? What did I go wrong? When you stopped working on it, then you started working in it.

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Angelo Esposito [00:17:20]:

That's a good one. And for people who maybe struggle, I think that's like, not even only limited to restaurants. I think it's an entrepreneur thing. A lot of entrepreneurs hopefully learn a lot. Don't ever learn that. But I think that's such a big, pivotal moment when an entrepreneur finally understands the concept of, you know, delegating to free up time, to level up, to work on the business.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:17:43]:

My title is business owner. That means I'm a leader. So that's my role. What am I not? Why am I on the grill? And I'm not saying that the operator doesn't ever need to jump in a position.

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Angelo Esposito [00:17:55]:

Right.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:17:56]:

Even. Even when I'm working with clients all over the place, I jump on. I'll jump in the dish pit. It doesn't matter to me. You have to do that once in a while. But you Got to understand that the majority of your ability to lead your business comes from you actually looking and doing the, the leadership role. And if you don't do that, if there's nobody doing that, you know, what do you got?

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Angelo Esposito [00:18:21]:

Flip it. I love that. That's a great, that's a great snippet. That's coming out as a short. That's an awesome snippet. And look on that kind of same note, I know one of the things you talk about, which I love, but I want to get your perspective is that great service isn't the same thing as hospitality. So I'm curious to understand what's the difference and why does it matter?

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Jeffrey Summers [00:18:43]:

This is, you would not think that this is very tumultuous, I mean, or argumentative about, but there's a big difference between service and hospitality. Service is the basic delivery of food and beverage. Hospitality is how you make people feel in the delivery of that food and beverage.

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Angelo Esposito [00:19:07]:

That's a good distinction.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:19:09]:

Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's, it's huge because there are a lot of people out there who are operating restaurants that think as long as the person runs the food and the beverage to the table, that we provided service. Well, you did, but you didn't provide hospitality. And that's the difference between people having lunch today and coming back for 12 more lunches the rest of the month.

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Angelo Esposito [00:19:32]:

So true. So true. And no, I love that. That's a, that's a good call out. Like, service is almost the, the, the bare minimum. Right.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:19:42]:

It's, it's the technical aspect of the business.

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Angelo Esposito [00:19:45]:

Yeah, yeah.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:19:46]:

Hospitality is the emotional side.

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Angelo Esposito [00:19:48]:

Yeah, that's a good way of framing it. And what are some ways that you've seen, right? I mean, look, four decades of experience, I mean, I can't imagine how many, you know, restaurants you, you've helped over the years. But any, and I know sometimes it's hard to think on the spot, but any that come to mind of like, good examples or unique examples of hospitality, like things people have done just to maybe share some stories that stand out to you.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:20:14]:

I've got six gazillion of them. But the difference is in knowing people. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk about everything from a 30,000 foot view, but it's easier to understand sometimes.

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Angelo Esposito [00:20:29]:

Sure.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:20:31]:

Whatever it takes to know your guest well enough to do things for that guest that make them want to come back now. And that's the, that's the rule. So as an operator, getting back to better thinking, you use that and you look at your business, and you look at the people that are working in your business, and you ask yourself what it is can we do with the guests that we have today to make sure that they feel great enough about being here that they're going to be a huge raving fan when they leave. Tell people, bring themselves back their family, their friends, everybody, colleagues, things like that. That will be the determinant for you. And getting back to the initial thing we talked about, every operation is different. So my hospitality is going to be different than the guy across the street, and it's going to be different from the guy two streets over.

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Angelo Esposito [00:21:24]:

Blah, blah, blah. 100%. Yeah.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:21:26]:

So you just. It's an individual thing, and it's a moment. You got to be in the moment, which is why the owner needs to be on the floor dealing with guests and employees delivering that level of hospitality. If you're stuck in the office, or if the manager's in the office all the time or on a position like we talked about a few minutes ago, who's delivering hospitality? I mean, you. You deliver hospitality in the moment, at the point of experience. And if that experience is nothing more than a warm body bringing me another drink, then I can get that anywhere.

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Angelo Esposito [00:22:04]:

Right.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:22:04]:

And we forgot that. We forgot everybody's wanting to deliver service and think, well, we serve better than everybody else when. No, because you've got half your staff from 12 different concepts who you never trained. You just allowed them to use their bad habits in delivering food and drink to a table and deliver checks. Okay, well, how is that hospitality? It's not.

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Angelo Esposito [00:22:28]:

Yep. That's fair. It's funny, the parallel that sometimes I see is, you know, when I talk a lot about, like, beverage costs and food costs and inventory and whatever, and then sometimes.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:22:39]:

And those are the easy things.

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Angelo Esposito [00:22:40]:

Exactly. And I tell people, I get this feedback sometimes, if you'll say, yeah, but, you know, I'm not worried about inventory this or that, because at the end of the day, you know, you just got to focus on, you know, having good food. And I'm like. And similar to what you just said, I explained to you the good food is. Is. Is the table stakes. It's kind of like what you said about serving a dish. It's like, if you don't have good food, you got bigger problems.

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Angelo Esposito [00:23:01]:

Right. So it's like sometimes people. I think you want to realize. Let's actually. Yeah, let's talk about that. That's. That was a lot of. A lot of media attention.

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Angelo Esposito [00:23:12]:

I'm curious to get your thoughts. Yeah, please Please, Please.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:23:16]:

Well, look, it leads in. If you think about what we're talking about, it leads right into a conversation about cracker barrel 100. And all the comments that I've been seeing and hearing and being forced in my ears that make me want to yell about, well, they've got good food. They'll come back. Really?

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Angelo Esposito [00:23:35]:

Exactly.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:23:36]:

How many, how many good restaurants do you know that had good food and good service, went out of business because they couldn't do anything else.

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Angelo Esposito [00:23:44]:

Exactly.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:23:45]:

Or didn't know how to, how to work with that. Good food and good service.

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Angelo Esposito [00:23:48]:

Exactly.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:23:49]:

So there's a modern example, if you want to talk about it.

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Angelo Esposito [00:23:52]:

No, it's not 100%. It's so true. It's like, I think sometimes people don't realize like that the minimum, like the bar is there, but that's the minimum. It's like, okay, you expect the place to be clean, have good food, have good drinks, servers to be know. It's like the bar is like there. So when people say things like that, I find it funny.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:24:11]:

We're talking about this today. Isn't it crazy that we're talking. The year is what, 2025.

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Angelo Esposito [00:24:16]:

2025.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:24:17]:

Unless I fell asleep. Right. I mean, we're talking about the table stakes yet again. Yeah, right. Yeah, I talked about table stakes 40.

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Angelo Esposito [00:24:27]:

You know, 40 some odd years ago when he started. Right?

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Jeffrey Summers [00:24:29]:

Yeah, yeah. Well, we're talking about, you know, the Q S, C and B. Quality, service, cleanliness and value. The old Ray Kroc mantra. Right. We were talking about it 40 years ago. Guess what year? 2025, we're still talking about. Hey, can you clean the table? Yeah.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:24:44]:

When you sweep the floor.

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Angelo Esposito [00:24:46]:

Right. That's, it's, it's true. You're spot on. I'm curious to get your take now that it came up, but you're right, it totally raised the Cracker Barrel. But I'm curious, what was, what was your take on it? Like, where do you think they went wrong? Right? Like this new logo. Jay, I'm curious, like, where, where you see. Yeah, just. What's your hot take on it?

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Jeffrey Summers [00:25:06]:

They spent too many years not bringing the. They forgot rule number one in the restaurant modernization playbook, and that is take the guest along for the ride. You can't just all of a sudden, after decades of delivering one product, all of a sudden overnight roll a truck in, make yourself look like first watch and then open the doors again and Uncle Herschel's gone and people are going to wonder, it's like, where's the Experience that I got before. I didn't. Didn't know you were going to change that. I didn't know you're going to change the dining room. I didn't know you're going to change the menu to some New York. Whatever.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:25:47]:

I didn't know you were going to change the server's ability to deliver a hospitality at the. I didn't know you were going to do all that. And you didn't ask me about it. So now you lost $200 million in market cap.

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Angelo Esposito [00:26:03]:

That was crazy.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:26:04]:

And then three days later, or whatever it's been, you have a news conference and go, oh, we're. We made a mistake. We're gonna go back to what we did. Uncle Herschel's back.

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Angelo Esposito [00:26:15]:

You think that was the right move to go back? I mean, they. They messed up. I agree with you, but do you think that was the.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:26:20]:

I think when you don't hire experienced restaurant people who have a proven track record of success in the thing you want to do, you're gonna have problems.

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Angelo Esposito [00:26:32]:

Yeah.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:26:33]:

So they had problems. They still got problems.

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Angelo Esposito [00:26:36]:

Yeah, yeah. It's not. It's not like everything's solved just because they said, oh, we're bringing it.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:26:40]:

It's the ultimate example of shooting yourself in the foot.

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Angelo Esposito [00:26:43]:

That's an interesting one. I mean, so interesting that even the president got involved and was like, if I were Scraggar, he gave us good advice. He's like, bring the logo back. But I was like, that's pretty good advice. But. But it's. That's how much coverage you got. Right.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:26:55]:

It doesn't mean that you can't tweak the brand to appeal to younger guests, but you can't throw everybody else off the bus just to do that.

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Angelo Esposito [00:27:06]:

Right.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:27:06]:

And how many. And again, it's 20, 25. This is not the first time that brand is trying to modernize itself. Modernize. Oh, there's the word. And the wheels fall off the bus.

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Angelo Esposito [00:27:21]:

Yeah.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:27:21]:

Go figure.

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Angelo Esposito [00:27:22]:

Yeah, that's super interesting. I'm going to see what will happen. I mean, by the time this episode airs, maybe in. In a week or two, there will be obviously these more, more, more to the story. So I'm curious to see where it goes. Losing that much in market cap in such a short amount of time is a lesson, an expensive lesson, to put it lightly. Right.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:27:45]:

I don't know what. It's just. I don't have a word for it. It's stupid.

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Angelo Esposito [00:27:49]:

Yeah.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:27:50]:

You don't understand restaurants. You know, restaurant especially independence, they understand that you have Seasonal menus. You're always trying to upgrade everything at the point of the guest experience. Now, whether that's decor, whether that's the food, whether that's your service model, whatever it is, you've got to take the guest along for the journey. You've got to get their input. You've got a. They have to be on the team. I mean, people forget that, you know, just because you own the place doesn't mean you've got to talk to a few people before you decide what it is you need to do next.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:28:26]:

And one of those people always has to be the guest.

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Angelo Esposito [00:28:29]:

Yeah, yeah.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:28:31]:

Go figure.

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Angelo Esposito [00:28:32]:

Yeah.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:28:33]:

20, 25 again. Here we go.

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Angelo Esposito [00:28:35]:

Yeah, yeah. No, it's funny. It's like the fundamentals, right? Like people. People.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:28:40]:

Yeah, the fundamentals never changed, man. We've still talking about them 40 years later. I mean, it's like, I don't know.

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Angelo Esposito [00:28:49]:

That's true. It's true. And, you know, kind of shifting gears into some of the, you know, real world challenges. I wanted to pick your brain on a few and one of them that I had written down was what's one mistake? Or give me more than one, but that you see restaurant leaders making over and over again. So we kind of just hit a few there about like forgetting your customer. But I love to hear what are maybe some other mistakes that you see restaurant leaders making over and over again.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:29:16]:

Calling guests customers, that's a problem. I mean, there's a difference between service and hospitality. We just talked about that. But there's also difference between customers and guests. Restaurants have guests. Walmart has customers. If you want to treat your guests like customers, that's a transactional mindset. What are you going to do? You ain't going to have a business much.

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Angelo Esposito [00:29:44]:

Well said. Well, that's cracker bell.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:29:47]:

But that's the biggest. The biggest one is just we, and we touched on earlier is they don't think they work. Yep, they do. They don't strategize. They don't look at the tactical viewpoint of their business and think about what it is they need to do to grow their business, their people in themselves.

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Angelo Esposito [00:30:07]:

Right. And I know there's, you know, there's a concept of, you know, the, the cloud and the dirt and it's like, you know, sometimes you got to get in the dirt and then sometimes you got to breathe a little and get back in the cloud so you can see the bigger picture and work on the business. What advice you have? I know obviously as much as someone work on the business is the Best. But, you know, then there's that reality that hits, and sometimes they got to step in. What advice can you give to people when it comes to, you know, managing that cloud and dirt and, you know, that. That alternation between. Between the two.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:30:37]:

It's the dining room, it's not the cloud. You live in the dining room.

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Angelo Esposito [00:30:41]:

Right.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:30:42]:

Hopefully you don't live in the back booth. But what they need to do is everything we've talked about. Master the fundamentals and then separate yourself from having to work a position if you're still doing that. I mean, it's 20, 25. I mean, who's leading the business? You got to understand the importance of leadership. If you don't understand the importance of leadership, ain't nothing gonna work for you, brother.

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Angelo Esposito [00:31:09]:

Yeah, yeah, that's a good.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:31:12]:

And if you don't understand leadership, call somebody. Call somebody that you admire who's done what you've done, you wanting to do successfully and talk them, talk to them.

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Angelo Esposito [00:31:23]:

I love that. And on the topic of leadership, I want. I want to pick your brain a little. You've coached thousands of leaders.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:31:31]:

Literally.

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Angelo Esposito [00:31:31]:

Well, yeah. Right. And so I'm curious to know what separates the good ones from the truly great ones, the ones who want to.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:31:40]:

Learn, the ones who look in the mirror and go, you know what I did? I don't realize how stupid I was two weeks ago.

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Angelo Esposito [00:31:47]:

Self awareness.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:31:47]:

And it's that fire in the belly to continue to learn. I mean, and not just about better ways to grill a hamburger. We're talking about everything. Life, brother. We're talking about how can I grow my employees better? What can I do better for them? What can I do better in the lives of my guests? What can I do better in the lives of my community? Well, I've got to. If I'm going to do something, I've got to teach myself. I've got to learn myself. I've got to inculcate myself with those skills and values and thinking in order to get done what it is I want to do or what I feel I can do or what I feel needs to be done.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:32:26]:

And if they don't do that, ain't nothing going to work, brother. Nothing. Not a thing.

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Angelo Esposito [00:32:32]:

That's well said. I've noticed that, too. Some of the best leaders I've met have that. Those two traits, you kind of said, which one is playing?

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Jeffrey Summers [00:32:40]:

And they tell you, when the masks fall down, you got to put your own first. Right?

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Angelo Esposito [00:32:44]:

Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:32:45]:

Before you can help anybody else, that means you've got to Prepare yourself. You gotta train yourself up.

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Angelo Esposito [00:32:51]:

Yeah.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:32:52]:

I don't know what else. That's it.

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Angelo Esposito [00:32:54]:

No, makes sense. It makes sense. Like for, for me at least makes dollars too, bro. From my point of view, I totally agree because the two kind of qualities I've seen in, I mean there's more than these two, but the two that I've noticed in pretty good leaders is one, they're often very self aware, like they know what they're good at, they know what they're not good at, like just that self awareness. And two is they're very curious. Most of them have that curiosity of just they want. It's not work. It's not like I got.

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Angelo Esposito [00:33:21]:

It's like they're just naturally buying books or going to seminars. Right. That curiosity is just, it's. It's in them. So for me, those are two things. I always keep an eye out because I notice people that are generally self aware and pretty curious. It's. It's a good foundation for potentially becoming a good leader or a great leader.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:33:38]:

If you look behind my head, you'll see a thousand books.

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Angelo Esposito [00:33:41]:

Yeah, I do.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:33:42]:

I've got a thousand more to my right and I got a thousand more piled up at my feet that I'm ready to read. It's a constant journey, man. I'm 61 years old and I've been in the business 40 some odd years. And when somebody says something that I've never heard before, or they're doing something I've never heard before, seen before, or I'm feeling something different that I've never felt before, I'm investigating, I'm curious, I'm gonna talk to me, throw me in, roll up my sleeves, get in there. What is going on? I want to learn this. I want to know this. And if you're not, you know, if you're not doing that, man, you don't, you're not growing, you're not leading. If you ain't growing and leading, ain't nobody else in your four walls doing it for you.

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Angelo Esposito [00:34:27]:

Yep. And you know, it's interesting. I always think about why like this could happen to any entrepreneur, not only restaurants. But I always think, and this is my theory, I'm curious to get your thoughts. I always think about why does this happen? Like more in restaurants. And what I think is when people get together and they're at a bar, it seems like the. I say easiest, but it's not actually an easy business. But people.

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Angelo Esposito [00:34:47]:

It seems like the easiest business that people can think of is, oh, we should Open a bar. We should open a restaurant. And so my theory is, because the barrier to entry is a bit lower. Right. Anyone can open it. You get a lot of people who are really not made for it. Right. Like, you get a lot of people who are not leaders or don't have that.

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Angelo Esposito [00:35:05]:

So it creates this kind of like.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:35:09]:

As soon as you tell your best friend Joe that he has the best barbecue because he invites you over, it's like, you oughta, you ought to get yourself a restaurant.

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Angelo Esposito [00:35:19]:

Yeah.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:35:19]:

You gotta open up a food truck.

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Angelo Esposito [00:35:21]:

Yeah. It's so true. That's literally the first piece of advice. And it's like, no, don't do it. Don't do it. I forget who told me it was a funny joke. Is like, hey, if you, if you wanna, if you want to make a quick million dollars, but by investing 3 million, open a restaurant.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:35:39]:

How do you make a large amount of. How do you make a small profit in the restaurant business? Start with a large one.

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Angelo Esposito [00:35:44]:

That's a good one. Yeah, exactly. That's better than cool. I got. I got a few more that I just got to pick your brain on. One is. And again, I'm sure you've seen this a million times, but it's a popular question left to get your take is, is going from one location to many. Right.

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Angelo Esposito [00:35:59]:

What's the biggest shift in mindset that you think an owner needs to kind of get there? And mindset. And I'm sure it's more the mindset. Obviously there's operational things, but what advice can you give from someone who's maybe it's got their first venue, they're doing well? Because I should probably preface, if you're not doing well with one venue, don't open more. But assuming you're. Yeah, disclaimer. But if you're doing well with one, what advice can you give for someone to maybe consider, let's say, that second location.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:36:27]:

Talk to people who've done that, who've gone through that process successfully.

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Angelo Esposito [00:36:31]:

Right.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:36:32]:

The thing I want to talk about is when you're asking people for their input and advice, make sure that what it is you're talking about is something that they've done successfully. Yes, it's successful experience that I'm looking for, not just experience. There's plenty of people out there ask Cracker Barrel who have failed because they had these bright ideas. Right. And didn't include people who've been there and done that and can help you through the process. But the, the word you're looking for is consistency is my Food consistent? Are my processes consistent? Is my hospitality delivery and service delivery models? Are those consistent? Is my growth consistent? Is my impact in the community consistent? Am I consistently growing people out of minimal roles into more strategic roles? Is my dishwasher becoming my GM next week? That kind of thing. And if you don't have that consistency across the board and all those things, it's not going to work. Don't do it.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:37:31]:

Don't open the second one because you're gonna just. You're gonna kill yourself.

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Angelo Esposito [00:37:35]:

That's well summarized consistency. I like that. That makes a ton of sense.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:37:40]:

And I don't. I don't subscribe to the idea that opening a second, the second one's easy. It's the third one that's hard. Tell me why.

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Angelo Esposito [00:37:48]:

Yeah, tell me more why?

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Jeffrey Summers [00:37:50]:

Because it's just that it's the third leg on the stool and you weren't really ready for it. It's easy to open a second one because you can drain your staff and your resources a little bit easier than you can a third time. Because until you replicate what made you a success the first time, the second time, and then replicate it again for the third time, if you're, if you get that process down, you'd be all right. But, you know, because you got a good gm, you tell them to go work a few days in the second one and then come back and run. And you stretch your resources that way, whether it's the food or the service staff.

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Angelo Esposito [00:38:31]:

Yeah, you can stretch it in two, but once you stretch, it makes sense even from an owner's perspective. Right. I can run around between two stores, but once I start running around three, it's not real. That's a good point. So number three is kind of the magic, magic number where you can see if you at least have something semi.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:38:48]:

Consistent thinking about your processes that allow you to replicate that level of success. And just because you do it once doesn't mean anything. I look at the third one. If that's successful, then you're ready to go.

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Angelo Esposito [00:39:03]:

Well said. Okay, that's a good one. I love that. Looking ahead, I always like to talk about, you know, what, what people can see, maybe, or people think will be coming in the future. So I'm curious to get your take right. You've been in it added for four decades. When you think about the next, you know, five years, even 10 years if you want. But let's just talk, you know, in the next five, ten, what excites you most about where hospitality is heading?

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Jeffrey Summers [00:39:26]:

Hospitality is not headed anywhere okay, tell me more.

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Angelo Esposito [00:39:29]:

What do you mean by that?

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Jeffrey Summers [00:39:32]:

We're still talking about that we just talked earlier about. We're still talking in the year 2025 about the fundamentals. Yeah, yeah, the fundamentals. They're going to be around in five years. They're going to be around in 10 years. The concepts may change and the food delivery may change and the science behind, you know, and technology is obviously going to help us a little bit more, although that's a huge problem I think right now. But AI is not going to be delivering food to your table. AI is not going to be cooking the food in the kitchen.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:40:05]:

So we're still going to be doing that kind of thing. Restaurants are. We're always going to want the. It's your ability to deliver a human experience in the restaurant world that doesn't change, brother. I mean, it's.

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Angelo Esposito [00:40:20]:

Yeah.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:40:20]:

The things I do for you today to make you a raving fan of my place are going to be the same things you do in 10 years. And they're the same things he did 10 years ago. That's why we're talking about the fundamentals every single day.

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Angelo Esposito [00:40:33]:

Right.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:40:34]:

So it's interesting. Nobody has a crystal ball and I really don't like looking at the future in that way. What I do is I want to grow my people, I want to grow my business, I want to grow myself as much and deep and wide as I can can and just see where that takes me. I don't know where it's going to be in five years, but I'm going to be grinding. I hopefully I'm smarter in five years that I'm more successful in five years and I've got more successful people surrounding me that I've helped grow into those roles too. And that's. You're keeping the nose to the grindstone. Look at the three feet in front of you and that's all you can do.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:41:10]:

This five year planning crab just doesn't cut it.

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Angelo Esposito [00:41:13]:

Yeah, no, I'm curious. Like when, when. And you. We. You briefly mentioned, you know, AI or even just, you know, robotics or technology in general. What's, what's, what's your take? I feel like you have a stance on it. Like, do you do, like.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:41:26]:

As long as the technology enhances the guest experience and doesn't supplant the guest experience, I'm all for it.

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Angelo Esposito [00:41:33]:

Got it.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:41:34]:

Anything that helps. It's like hand. I'm. The biggest thing I've got are handhelds at the table for servers. I think that's the Greatest thing since sliced bread outside of the KDs in the kitchen. The kitchen display systems that you're using, I mean, for instant communication of orders and stuff. But a server used, you know, you go to that, they take an order at the table or write it down, whatever it is. Then they go to this big monstrosity that's anchored in the middle of the dining room and everybody's lined up.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:42:03]:

It's like, cut that out, get them a handheld, let them order from the table, and then hit the send button. And then it's like, okay, what else can I do for you? I took your order. That was the easy part. Let's deliver some hospitality. Let's get to know the guest. Let's understand who and why they're here so we can amplify those reasons for them to come back.

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Angelo Esposito [00:42:22]:

Yeah, no, I love that, I love that. I'm a big believer in all the back of house stuff because that's what Whis does. But really, when we started with, that was actually the main mission. It was how do we free up people's time so they could just focus on the things that actually matter. Right. Like Instead of spending 10 hours on inventory, can I spend 2? Instead of reviewing invoices manually, can I snap a picture? And it was like all the things that we knew restaurants kind of had to do. And they're important, but they're just long and tedious and so it's not sexy, but it's just like, can we just get people to spend less time so they can actually just do the important stuff? I mean, that's important to do. But you know, the focus on the, like you, you say the customer or the, or the guest experience, which I think is, is crucial.

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Angelo Esposito [00:43:02]:

Like anything you can do, focus more on that generally is a net positive. Right.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:43:06]:

The more, the more resources, the more energy you can bring to bear to. For the guests at the table. Because that's where it all happens. That's why the table is sacred ground. The more you can do for that, the better off you're going to be. And if you're, you know, no fear time. We still have no fear time. 11, 25 to 8.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:43:24]:

I mean, yep, everybody's all hands on deck. I mean, and then what are you doing? Not just delivering food, setting it on the table, what are you doing to the guests? What are you doing with the guest?

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Angelo Esposito [00:43:35]:

Makes sense. And I know we're coming up on time here, but I always like to end off with, you know, thought provoking question. And so I'd love To ask you if you could go back and give your younger self one piece of advice before starting out in the restaurant industry, what would it be?

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Jeffrey Summers [00:43:51]:

Stay in college, Go to law school.

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Angelo Esposito [00:43:56]:

I love that. That's hilarious.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:43:58]:

I'll tell you, brother, I don't think that I would do it different. My journey started out in fast food because that's with no experience and no professional skills like culinary or anything else, you couldn't do anything else. So I spent my years in the wilderness in fast food until I was trying to, at any point, get into full service because that's where the game was, you know, fast food. Okay, that's easy. I've got that mastered in the first six months. All right. I'm in a shirt and tie after, you know, put the grill together. So let's go.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:44:34]:

It's full service. It's more complex. It's about where the metal meets the meat, so to speak. Yeah, I mean, you're building relationships at that point. I mean, you do it in fast food, too, but it's just. It's just a whole different world. And full service was the real world. So I spent years trying to get into full service, and then once I got there, it's like, there's the second epiphany.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:44:59]:

I should have been doing this all along. If you love people, this is. It's the place to be. If you don't love people, go do something else. And I'm not talking about, yeah, it's okay to be. Stand next to somebody for five seconds. No, you got to love people.

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Angelo Esposito [00:45:15]:

That's good advice. No good advice. Well, people listening, hopefully they take it. I mean, yeah, if you're not a people person, hospitality is most likely not going to be for you. So you nailed it there. I love that. And I like to end off with connecting. I'm a big fan of just connecting worlds.

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Angelo Esposito [00:45:35]:

And so our audience can learn more about you, find more about you. So as we wrap this up, Jeffrey, where can people learn more about summer's hospitality group? Learn about you? Maybe follow, maybe sign up for your coaching? So we'll put in the description, but yeah, please, please link it. So tell me, just get the audio version of it. Where can they go?

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Jeffrey Summers [00:45:56]:

Jefferysummers.com.

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Angelo Esposito [00:45:58]:

Okay, perfect. So, jefferysummers.com any socials you want to plug or everything's on the website?

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Jeffrey Summers [00:46:04]:

Well, everything's on the web. I mean, everything is on. Everything's on the website. I've got re of information on the website.

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Angelo Esposito [00:46:11]:

Okay.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:46:11]:

But I'm on every social media platform. So just look for Jeffrey Summers anywhere you want to go and you'll find me.

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Angelo Esposito [00:46:19]:

Cool. I love that. So for people listening in, if you like this and you like Jeffrey, four decades plus of wisdom, don't be shy, give him a follow Instagram on LinkedIn. I'm sure he's got a lot of thought leadership stuff going on. And most of all, just go to jeffreysummers.com so Jeffrey, thanks for joining the WISKing it all podcast today. Really appreciate your time.

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Jeffrey Summers [00:46:39]:

Hey, my pleasure brother. You have a good day.

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Angelo Esposito [00:46:41]:

This is awesome. We'll talk soon. If you want to learn more about WISK, head to WISK AI and book a demo. Sam.

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